Fair Play in Marriage & Divorce: Creating Harmony and Accountability with Tami Hackbarth

Note: Our Podcast, “Fair Play in Marriage & Divorce: Creating Harmony and Accountability with Tami Hackbarth”, was created to be heard, but we provide text transcripts to make this information accessible to everyone. All transcripts on our website are created using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers and could contain errors.

Jaime Davis – 00:00:05:

Welcome to A Year and a Day. I’m Jaime Davis, board-certified family law attorney at Gailor Hunt. On this show, I talk with lawyers, psychologists, and other experts with the goal of helping you navigate divorce without destruction. In this episode, I’m talking with Tami Hackbarth. Tami helps people get their time and energy back so they can create the world they want to live in. She is a certified life and work coach, author, host of 100% Guilt-Free Self-Care podcast, and a Fair Play facilitator. We’re going to get into what Fair Play is and how it might be able to support you before, during, and after your divorce. Thanks for joining me, Tami.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:00:48:

I am so happy to be here, Jaime.

Jaime Davis – 00:00:51:

So first things first, what is the Fair Play system?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:00:56:

All right. So Fair Play started with a list called. Blank I do given from the author to her spouse to express her frustration after they had kids. That she felt she was taking on the vast majority of household tasks. And she wanted to let him know that she needs more appreciation and perhaps for him to step up and do more around the house because they were a dual income family. And he had, you know, a very big job, but so did she. But after they had kids is when everything kind of fell apart because she still had this powerful job. She also is an attorney. Her name is Eve Rodsky. And, through the conversations that she had with her spouse and her friends, They came up with the idea that Home should be run. Using the tools that we learn at work. About project management, about clear communication, about ownership over tasks, about frequent check-ins, and getting everyone on the team to decide what’s important, what are our deadlines, how do we know when a project is done, so that A. All of this unpaid labor in the home doesn’t fall to the default spouse, which is usually the female partner in a heterosexual relationship, but also so that everyone in the house could have this thing that is now called Unicorn Space, which is time to pursue your hobbies, your talents. And kind of that thing that makes you you. And the reason it’s called Unicorn Space is because most people, when you say, hey, what would you do with three to five hours a week? And it couldn’t have anything to do with chores being a parent, being a partner, being a professional, most people’s mind goes completely blank.

Jaime Davis – 00:03:05:

I get that.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:03:05:

Because they’re like, I’m sorry, I don’t have this mythical creature. It feels like a unicorn. So the whole purpose of Fair Play is to get the grownups in the house on the same page so that, you’re fighting against the organization, meaning the house, the chores, all of the adulting tasks that we do, versus fighting with either your current spouse. Or the spouse that once you have dissolved your marriage, that you are forever going to be having open, clear communication with while you co-parent your kids.

Jaime Davis – 00:03:46:

Oh, I love it. What a wonderful idea.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:03:48:

Right? So there’s a Hulu documentary. So if you’re like, oh, I’m really very curious about this. It’s an hour and a half documentary. It lays out Fair Play start to finish. And so you learn all about Eve’s backstory. You learn about the cards. There’s a little… Card game? And these are the cards that you bring to the table when you’re having these discussions with your partner so that you can get on the same page. And there’s a book called Fair Play and there’s a book called Unicorn Space. And the best part, if you’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m super busy. Can somebody just teach me how to do this? There are Fair Play, and they’re all over the country.

Jaime Davis – 00:04:33:

That’s wonderful. Can you explain how the principles of the Fair Play system might be beneficial for couples who are considering or going through a separation and divorce?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:04:45:

Absolutely. So in the Fair Play deck, I’m like, where did it go? Here it is. I’ve got two. I’ve got one open and one closed. So in the Fair Play deck, I love this because… I grew up thinking, did I miss that day in adulting school when they told me everything I needed to do as an adult? And the answer is yes. Yes, I did. Right. Because I was like, what was I not paying attention? So essentially, in the Fair Play communication system, there’s 100 cards and they fall in the categories of creating magic for your family. They fall in the categories of wild card. They fall in the categories of things that you do in your home, the things you do outside your home. Right. And when you are a couple, you have 60, you have the potential to have 60 cards. And if you have kids, you get 40 more cards.

Jaime Davis – 00:05:39:

Oh, that’s fun.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:05:40:

40 just for the pleasure of having a kid. You’re like, wow, it really is that much more work. And it really is because these little people really depend on us. So the thoughts behind communicating in the Fair Play way is that we value everyone’s time the same because we all have 168 hours. We’re not we’re no longer tying our value of our time. To the dollar amount that you make it work. Because I know a lot of people get confused. It’s like, well, their time is worth more because they make more money. The hope is that we all value the time that we put towards our families the same that we would for the hours that we can bill at work. So imagine you’re sitting across the mediation table. From your spouse and you’ve got your two little kids. And you have to decide how are you going to handle magical beings. And you might think, what is that? Well, friends, that’s the tooth fairy. How are you going to handle it? Are there going to be two tooth fairies? Or is there going to be one tooth fairy? How much money does a tooth fairy give for each tooth? And you might think, well, who cares? Your kids care. Because let me tell you, right? Let me tell you, one couple, the dad in the… Uh, tooth fairy category. He forgot to leave. If there’s any kids listening right now, I don’t know why they would be listening to a divorce podcast, but if your kids are here, shh, don’t tell them. The dad forgot to leave the money. And before Fair Play… The wife would have just, well, she would have been real mad at him, and nagged him. Told him, I can’t believe you forgot. But instead, she was like, you know what, you own that card. So what he did was he solved his own problem. He wrote an email to toothfairy@gmail.com, I believe it is, and the tooth fairy wrote back. And he’s tucked the email with the cash under the kid’s pillow the next day. But here’s the thing. Imagine you’re living in two houses and your kid loses their very first tooth and they’re with the person that is not you. They’re with their other parent. Wouldn’t it be great for you to have a plan about how you’re going to deal with those things right at the very start? Wouldn’t it be great if you could determine, again, like, is this even important to us? Are we going to do this at all? And can we have a united front so that the kids aren’t kind of caught in the crossfire? Another card is holidays. What holidays are important to us? What are we going to celebrate? How’s this going to go? Is it going to be… Our house versus your house. Are we going to celebrate together? These cards and these… Conversations. Help you avoid fights in the future. And they also bring a sense of community because the very first part when you’re sitting down to have these conversations is all about bringing the humanity to what can be kind of. Mundane tasks. Like filling out school forms. You might think, we were just talking about the holidays. We were just talking about birthdays. What about school forms? Well, I don’t know if anyone enjoys filling these out, but I do know that the office does not want two copies of this. So how are we going to handle school forms? I don’t know when this podcast is going to be released, but let me tell you, the first day of school, whoever picks the kids up is going to get inundated with a packet. And if you have more than one kid, you’re going to be doing the same thing over and over. But when we talk with our partners, whether they be our current partners or our future co-parenting partners, we can say, hey, my mom was always the one that handled this. This is how she handled it. Or. We bring the humanity in like, oh, I love filling out forms because it makes me feel like a grown up.

Jaime Davis – 00:09:51:

That, obviously said no one ever.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:09:52:

Young person, right? Oh, no, I will say as your kids get older, you’re like, can you fill out the form? Is there a typing form? Like, how can we make this happen? But it’s this idea that we’re through these conversations, you are bringing in a sense of generosity. We’re putting all of our heads together to make a one plan for the family in this one area. So we’re not duplicating others’ work. We’re not criticizing other people’s work. The work of the kids and all of the infrastructure underneath raising kids is done. Because you worked on it together.

Jaime Davis – 00:10:30:

Well, so what do you do, like, for example, like holidays and magical beings? Those would be very important cards to me. You know, growing up as a kid, my parents were great with both of those things.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:10:41:

How do you deal with

Jaime Davis – 00:10:42:

folks that don’t necessarily trust each other? And if you have to give up one of those cards to the other parent and that parent says, I’m going to be responsible for magical beings or whatever, and then they don’t do it. How do you deal with that if they’re not holding up their end of the bargain?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:10:58:

Okay, I… This is such a good question. So there’s two things. So every card goes through the process called CPE, which is conception. That’s putting the stories behind every card. So you tell like that time that you were at your grandparents’ house and Santa didn’t come because somebody forgot the gifts at the house, whatever. Right. And you’re like traumatizing forever. I had to go to therapy for that. So you want to make sure that you’re like, this is really important and I don’t want to disappoint your kids. So A, that. B, planning is when you… Like task out all of the things that are happening. Then you have the execution, which actually is the happening. Then we have this thing called minimum standard of care. You agree beforehand. You agree beforehand. How we will know this job is done. So that’s part one. The other part is, say I hold the special needs mental health kids card. I do not hold this card forever. Cards can be handed back and forth. If you have a card and you’ve been doing it and you’re like, well, this is really a heavy lift for me. I don’t want to do this anymore. I need a break from this. You can go back and redeal the cards between the partners. But the thing that is really nice is, you can trust that your person is going to follow through. And they’re going to do it. Or they’re going to have to own. That they were solely responsible and that they failed to do it. You don’t have to worry about it. You don’t have to micromanage. Because we’re showing up in good faith, we’re showing up in… Grown up, like a grown up relationship. And I feel like if you have taken the time. And the conversation. And the dollars with your mediator. That you come up with this plan, that the plan is more binding than would be if you just said, oh yeah, I’ll take care of it.

Jaime Davis – 00:13:08:

Yeah, I get that. I mean… You’ve got more of a buy-in from the person, right? Like it’s partially their idea as to what cards they’re responsible for. And so it’s creating accountability. But since they’ve chosen it, I would think that they would want to do a good job at whatever the task is. Does that make sense?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:13:25:

Oh, absolutely. But also, when you model this with your kids. And I hope that you would model this with your kids because that one of my things is I don’t want to have to be a facilitator for the next generation. I want every kid to grow up with these conversations happening in their homes so they can be like, oh, when we have a problem, we figure it out. This is how we talk about it and this is how we solve it. And this is who’s responsible for what. I know from experience that sometimes people do disappoint their kids by not following through. On things that they say they were going to do. And as somebody who grew up with divorced parents. My parents, I felt like, wanted to outdo each other about how well they were showing up. Because, again, there was a… These are the things you do with dad. These are the things you do with mom. So if dad is not showing up. Dad’s the one that’s also reaping the disappointment. All on their own. Right. And I also know that some people end up getting divorced because they feel like they their partner isn’t participating. They feel like their partner isn’t following through. They feel like their partner isn’t. Living up to the promises. And I have a long pause here because… I want to say, that by and large, I’m not in the business of rescuing other adults. From the consequences of their actions. It’s like if you don’t show up and you disappoint your people. That’s on you.

Jaime Davis – 00:15:16:

Right. It’s like they’re responsible for their relationship with their children. You know, once you’re separated and divorced, it is on you as the parent to build and nurture that relationship. It is not on your co-parent to do that for you if you are not stepping up and doing the things that you need and agreed to do.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:15:34:

Right. I mean, I’ll say two things. One, I had a therapist jokingly say to me that she was not joking. It was a joking, not joking situation. And she said, your kids are going to go to therapy for either you or your partner. Be the better partner. Be the better parent. And they will spend less time in therapy. And I was like, ooh, all right, we’re raising the bar here.

Jaime Davis – 00:15:58:

Right.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:15:58:

And… I had another, um, wise person. Tell me, I mean, it must have been honestly 40 years ago. My parents divorced when I was 10. And they, they had a really good divorce. But every once in a while there would be little like snippy snippy backtalk about the other person. And my brother and I were both. Very forthcoming with our folks and said, please don’t talk about the other person. Like this is hard enough. Please don’t talk about the other person. And a wise friend of the family said, The behavior of each parent will reveal itself in time. You don’t ever have to talk poorly about your parent of the co-parent. Because either they will step up and meet that obligation and meet that. High bar. With their kids or they won’t. And again, it’s like, Like you built, you built that. So it’s your relationship to lose.

Jaime Davis – 00:17:13:

Yeah. And as your children’s, you know, co-parent, why would you want to do anything else to further hurt your children’s feelings if they’re already feeling bad about something the other parent did or didn’t do? I mean, they’re probably already having to deal with those feelings and you talking negatively about the other parent is only going to make them feel worse. It’s certainly not going to help anything.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:17:36:

Right. And also, this could be a really good time to talk about feelings of disappointment and frustration and hurt. And also. We messed up. And we forgive people. And we do better. And… It sucks to disappoint other people. And sometimes it happens. And, and, a very wise friend told me because, you know, I have my own kid now and she was having some struggle at school and I was all upset. And she reminded me, she said, you know, resilience is not built. By a smooth path. You have to have things. To bump up against so that you can practice. Uh, like building up your reserves of building up. Like I can be. Tough things can happen and I can meet them and grow from it. It was like. I am going to very much treasure that lesson later. Right now, I’m just going to be mad. Yes, that is exactly the wisdom I need to hear. Later when I’m not so mad.

Jaime Davis – 00:18:44:

Right. Absolutely. Well, so for couples on the brink of divorce, how can they begin to redistribute household tasks using the Fair Play system to see if it might salvage the relationship?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:18:59:

First things first, I think that Fair Play can really help couples. Get out of the negative pattern that they’ve been in. Because I like to think of, when couples are using the Fair Play system, imagine there’s a triangle and at the top it says home. And then there’s the two legs of the triangle and here’s me and here’s you. And we’re holding hands and we’re looking at this thing up here called this is the enemy. The enemy is why do we have so much laundry? Who keeps needing to feed these kids? Why do we have to drive them places? What do we have to do with them during summer break? So it’s this idea that it takes the personal it takes the personal nature of chores away. It takes some of the sting out. And if you look at it as a problem outside your relationship to solve, Right there, you’re already off the emotional roller coaster. Right? So one thing that I do is I like to ask people to watch the documentary and say, hey, what did you think of that? Right. So that’s a good entry point. Another entry point is. To go to the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. And you can get a list of the cards. And you can say, hey. Let’s look at these. Did you get the adulting handbook when you moved out? Because I did not. Let’s look at these cards because the best, I feel like one of the best parts of Fair Play is everybody that has kids starts with 100 cards. But you don’t have to keep 100 cards. What you do first is you go through and you say. Special needs mental health kits. Is this important for us to worry about? And if you don’t have kids, you’re like, hooray, already got rid of. Now we’re down to 99, right? So you go through each card. And You’re like, school breaks Kids Summer. And you go, yes, we definitely need to have a system around this so that we make sure that we get into. Summer camp. Right. School forms. You’re like, we’re just not doing it this year. Get rid of it, right? So the number one thing is you’re looking at all the tasks with the idea of somebody here is going to need to do all of these. What are we willing to commit our time and effort to? What is important to us? Because here’s the thing. Thank you cards is in here. I know thank you cards are a lightning rod. Some people just went. I’m sorry, would you throw away the thank you card? The thank you card? And other people are like… That’s completely off the list. Holiday cards. Because we all know, as anyone who’s ever sent a holiday card, that’s not a one and done. That’s like a whole project that needs a project manager, especially if you’re doing a photo holiday card, right? Oh, yeah. The very first thing that you do is you go. So you say, hey, team member, person that I love, person that I married. Let’s look at this list of adulting tasks and decide what’s important enough for us to spend our limited time on Earth doing and what is not important in our life right this second.

Jaime Davis – 00:22:34:

So what do you do if one spouse has a card that is super important to them? And I’m going to use the holiday card example because that one is super important to me. And I believe it might be the bane of my husband’s existence when I pick out everyone’s matching outfit and say that I’ve scheduled an appointment for the family photo shoot. That’s not his favorite thing. So what do you do there?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:22:56:

But it’s funny that you say that because I was recently on a call. With a person who was deciding if she wanted to work with me. And we used the holiday cards as an example. And I said, so what do you think? And she was like, I’m out. Absolutely not. And I said, what about your spouse? And she said. What do you mean? What about my spouse? Well, have you ever asked him how he feels about holiday cards? And she said, not one time in my life. And I said, okay, go ask him. So she brought the car to him and she explained CPE. You know, she explained why it’s important or not important to her. Then she asked him, is it important to you? He said, yes. And he gave her reason why. And she was, A, completely blown away. She’s like, I’ve been with this guy for 16 years. I had no idea he was into holiday cards. So they go through and she’s like, okay, but the most important detail is. Are you willing to do all the things that need to happen to make this happen? Is it that important to you? And he said yes. And she said. What support do you need from me? And he said, I need you to show up here and I need you to do this. And she said, terrific. And they sent out a holiday card for the first time in 16 years. So number one. Jaime, I bet if you told your beloved. Why those dang holiday cards are so important to you. They might go. I had no idea. And I will do this thing that I might think is dumb because you love it so much. Like, don’t make me do all the things for it. But if there’s certain things like if you need me to do the envelopes or you need me to get the stamps or you need me to do. Sure, I can do some of that. But if you want to own this thing, terrific, because here’s the thing. We do value different things. So when it comes to a thing that. Once one person is like, absolutely not. And the other person is like, absolutely. Yes. I feel like it’s a compromise to say, I will hold this card because it’s super important to me. And I would like some, just acknowledgement that sometimes we do things for our partners. Because we love them. Again, I’m not going to drag you through every knot hole of the entire spreadsheet that goes into doing a holiday card. But… Because you know it’s important to me. Now, I’m dying to know, of course. What is your why? Why do you love holiday cards?

Jaime Davis – 00:25:47:

I started it when my kids were very, very little babies. And I use that picture every year kind of as our family picture that is memorializing the family that year. And I just like to have that. And having the holiday card gives you the reason to schedule the family photo shoot so it gets everybody together. And it’s funny, the division of labor that you mentioned, that’s kind of how we have, you know, come down on this issue. I do the coordinating. I help pick out the outfits. I get everybody there. But then he’s more than willing to go buy the stamps and help me get the envelopes addressed and get them out the door. So it works.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:26:20:

But the thing is, though, is, but if you just said to say, your 13 year old child, you’re like, let’s do holiday cards. They, A, have no idea why it’s important to you. They have no idea why dad doesn’t think it’s important. And they have no idea what it’s doing. One of the things I love is that it makes… Invisible labor. Very visible to the entire family. Right?

Jaime Davis – 00:26:49:

Yeah.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:26:49:

We can talk about the home supplies card. If anybody who’s listening right now goes to any person in their house and says, Where do we buy sheets? 99% of the people in the house will be like. They didn’t just come with the house? Where does the toilet paper come from? You know that thing we never run out of? The toilet paper fairy didn’t come. Where did the toilet paper come from? Right. And getting all of these invisible multi-step tasks out, it helps us teach our kids. What it means to be a grown-up. It teaches our kids how to do chores. It teaches our kids clear, direct communication. It teaches them collaboration. It teaches them teamwork. And I started… I was an elementary school teacher for a long time. So I have a philosophy, and that is if a child can do a job with reasonable training. I’m going to allow that child to do the job. Because I would like a good roommate whilst they live under my roof. So my 13-year-old is super competent at a lot of stuff. Because we started… Really breaking jobs down for her when she was really, really little. So my kids been doing chores since she was two. So if you come to my house and you want a spoon, go to the drawer at your knee and pull it open and you can find a spoon. If you’re what if you want my kitchen, if you’re like, where’s your microwave? I’ll say, look at the bottom shelf. So I have very short kid. But I’m just like, I’m going to empower you with the tools so that you can grow up and be confident that you can have conversations with your roommates. You can have conversations with your siblings. Working together. In collaboration on projects is. I don’t know, the number one job skill. Right. And it’s it’s really, really hard when kids only learn that at school. So we can do that at home too.

Jaime Davis – 00:29:05:

So does that mean that actual cards could potentially be assigned to the children?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:29:11:

Yes. I’m going to go out here and I’m going rogue. And the reason I say that is… I- In Fair Play, the book, Eve doesn’t talk about bringing the kids in to doing work. But again, my philosophy is like all hands on deck. Everybody that lives in the house, let’s do this. So at my house, we have. A box of Fair Play cards, sitting on our dining room table. And so we use these as conversation starters. So last year, my daughter transitioned from elementary school to middle school. And in the summer, I happened to just pull a card out, school transitions. And I said, let’s talk about this. I said, hey, kiddo, why don’t you tell me your idea about school transitions? And she goes, oh, it’s easy. You know, I come home. I dropped my stuff in the doorway and we all laughed. And she’s like, I go potty, I wash my hands, I get a snack. And if I don’t have homework, I can do whatever I want. And yeah. And I was like, that is yes, that is a school transition. And boy, we did work on that for years. And I really do wish that we could get that backpack not in the doorway. I mean, it goes it goes away eventually. But the initial it always hits the floor first. But I was like, that’s so funny because I was thinking of the bigger, the bigger view of a school transition. And she said, what do you mean? I was like. Well, when I left elementary school and went to junior high. I was scared out of my mind. I was like, and do you know what my brother did? And she said, what? I was like. He was so scared to junior high, he cut school for the first two weeks of seventh grade. And she was like. Does that? I’m like, right? And my husband was like, it was terrifying. So we had this really great conversation about school transitions, which is you’re leaving one thing, you’re going to another. These are the things that are going to be different. Like we went from a walking to school situation to a driving to school situation. We used to be a nine o’clock and now we’re going to be at 830 and all of these things. But these conversations happened months before. And we got to talk about. The feelings behind it. The feelings behind the thing so that we could have these bigger conversations. When it came up. And it made for everything to be much smoother, right? It made the transition for my husband and I. Much smoother because we’re like, who’s doing paperwork this year? Because we go back and forth because we both hate it equally. I do it one year, he does it another. Like I handle school communication with teachers. Unless there’s a problem, in which case I’m like, I will handle. Five of these, you have to get the sixth one because I don’t like him anymore. Right. But it is such it’s like they’re conversation starters and it gives you like a framework. That you’re like, you could talk about each one of these cards for 15 minutes once a week. And by the time your kid moves out, they’ll have a really good idea of all the things that could come up as a grownup and how to talk to the people that they love. To get them on board.

Jaime Davis – 00:32:33:

I think it’s a great idea. I think I might have to start implementing some Fair play cards at my house, especially with some of these children, some of whom have transitioned to college and are about to start high school.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:32:44:

Right. But this is the other thing. I don’t know about you, Jaime, but when I was in college, the way that we communicated our dissatisfaction with our roommates were on hot pink post-it notes. There would be like… A toothpick, a toothpaste stain on the mirror, and then there would be a post-it note, a passive-aggressive post-it note. It didn’t help anyone, right? The person leaving the post-it note, mad. The person… Being passively aggressive, told to clean the mirror? Mad. But what if we had had a meeting? Once a week or once a month to say, who is cleaning the bathroom mirror this week? Who is in charge of the bathroom this week? It just saves a lot of arguing. And again, it gets us out of fighting with each other. And looking at the… House the chores, the adulting as… Projects that we can work on together, problems to solve together. So that we can live harmoniously with the people that we’ve chosen to live with, or the people that we’ve chosen to no longer live with, but we’re tied to forever because we have kids.

Jaime Davis – 00:33:57:

I think it gets rid of the resentment, right? Like if there are tasks that aren’t being done, instead of saying something about it, I think folks just like to secretly hold this resentment that the other person doesn’t magically know to do the thing because you assume they’re an adult and they should know to do the thing. But if you’re having these conversations ahead of time and everybody’s agreeing on the who does what, then I think you take that feeling out of it.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:34:19:

Also, can we talk about how people who are assigned female at birth are taught from birth? To take care of things around the house. And people who are assigned the male gender at birth are taught to protect and provide. And that is it. So if you’re mad at your grown spouse because they don’t see the things that you see, it’s because it has not been pointed out to them for their entire life that it is their responsibility to do a single one of these cards. And so a lot of people come to me and they’re mad at their person. I’m like, girl, I get you. I get it. And I want to remind you. It’s hard to be mad at people who don’t have the same experience as you. Right. If you look at your person, you’re like. Wow, your mom didn’t teach you how to wash your own clothes. Like I had a boyfriend in college. Who would take his laundry to his mom’s house on the weekends from college? She would wash it. I earned his shirts. And I went to him and I was like, are you a grownup? And he said, she likes to do that. She does it for all of us. To which I said, ew. EW! Ew. I don’t want to date a grown up that doesn’t know how to do stuff. Right? But if our if our partners were never taught and they were never expected to do stuff. It’s hard to see what’s invisible. The reason why nobody in your house knows when to buy toilet paper is because they’ve never been tasked with doing it. They’ve never been tasked to. Know that the toilet paper is low. They’ve never, because the toilet paper fairy has come. Right. So when we create the other thing is nobody knows how long it takes to do a job because they’ve never done it. Right. If you just ask somebody, they’re like, how hard can doing a. Holiday Card Beat. And then you go through the 500 steps. They’re like, that is a lot harder than I thought. Thank you for doing that for our family, right? So. I feel like this… Um, this communication tool, helps us be more generous with our expectations. Because we’re like, your mom and dad never taught you how to do that. So why would you know? Right. Why would you know? Society tells you that you have to be a provider and a protector. You’re not expected to do anything else. So this is actually changing. How we Move in the world. And ultimately, it gives us more time and energy to do the things like, so one of my hobbies is to I’m like, what word do I want to use? Organized people. Who want social safety nets. Wouldn’t it be great if we had child care subsidies so that child care could just be taken care of so we could get rid of the summer break? Like, what do we do with the children during summer break? Well, we all send them to the same place because. We now have that, right? We’ve got some sort of care system for everyone in the country. Wouldn’t that be great? Well, guess what? Amazing. Right? And so when we have equity in our home, we can say, hey, this works out great for all of us. What if we had more equity in society as well? So. Spread the word of fair play and help families rebalance the labor in their home. We reduce the mental load so moms aren’t up in the middle of the night thinking about the tooth fairy and the toilet paper and the water bottle and the shoes they need for aquatic camp. Right, that other people are handling some of the details. It’s my hope that the next generation will have that.

Jaime Davis – 00:38:41:

Absolutely. Well, so for those who have gone through a divorce, what lessons from Fair Play might help them in future relationships to avoid the same pitfalls?

Tami Hackbarth – 00:38:53:

Oh my god, that is so good. You mean the round two folks, the people who are like, I am enthusiastically and optimistically going into another relationship. I feel like everyone can benefit from bringing Fair Play into their life because I have a saying. That I heard that is so simple, but so profound, and it’s begin the way you wish to continue. So say I was ending a relationship and I was beginning the new relationship with my former spouse as a co-parent. We’re going to use Fair Play. We’re using Fair Play in my house. We’re using Fair Play in their house. When I go into a new relationship, I would begin that relationship saying, hey, this is how we run things at our house. Because… We all deserve to have time to ourselves. And the way that we get that is that we rebalance the domestic labor so that everyone has ownership. Right from the start. And that we are in the business of teaching the next generation how to really. Adult in a really equitable way that not one person is responsible for everything. And Uh, yeah, begin the way you wish to continue.

Jaime Davis – 00:40:25:

I like that. I think that’s great advice. Well, thanks, Tami, for joining us.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:40:33:

I so appreciate the time to talk about Fair Play. One more thing. In the Fair Play system. There are… Three cards that I want to point out that every player gets. And so the players are considered the grownups, right? Every player gets self-care. Every player gets unicorn space. And every player gets time with their adults, meaning that they get to foster their adult friendships. So just think in your mind right now as a listener. What in your life would change if you and your spouse started with… Self-care. Making the time. Using the resources for each of you to have self-care dialed every day of the year. What in your life would change if you and your partner each had, say, one evening off a week? Say you have Tuesday evening from 5 to 10 PM, every Tuesday to do whatever you want. You’re out there tap dancing. You’re taking horseback riding lessons. You’re doing comedy improv. And your spouse has every Friday night off. And they go and take golf lessons and have a cocktail in the bar. What you’re doing right there is you’re like blowing your own mind right now. You’re like, what when my life would change? And then what would change if you and your partner both had the time? On a regular basis, whether it be every week. Every month. Every quarter, whatever you, the cadence you decide on, that you get to pour into time with your friends. Because the number one thing that is so crazy. That keeps us alive and healthy is our relationships with people. That’s like the number one longevity. Secret apparently your friends will keep you alive longer than even if you quit smoking So if you poured into your own self-care, your own unicorn space, your talents, your gifts, the things that make you you, the things that make you interesting to sit next to at a dinner party. And your friends, even if you only did those three cards. What in your life would change.

Jaime Davis – 00:43:10:

I think you’ve already blown my mind that you get self-care in addition to unicorn space, in addition to time with other adults. Like that sounds magical.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:43:20:

Right. And you’re like, who cares about the dishes? I’m happy.

Jaime Davis – 00:43:25:

And the dishes are probably done.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:43:27:

Or you’re like, whatever, or you’re happily doing the dishes because the rest of your life, you’re like, wow, I feel poured into, I feel satisfied. I feel the way I thought I would feel when I was a grown up. Right? Nobody? Wrote on their little, When I Grow Up paper in second grade and said, boy, I hope I’m really bitter about chores when I grow up. Right? We all have these bigger visions for our lives and Fair Play can help you get there. Right. So I would start with those three cards. If possible.

Jaime Davis – 00:44:06:

I love it. This has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much.

Tami Hackbarth – 00:44:11:

Thank you.

Jaime Davis – 00:44:17:

Thank you for listening. If you like this episode, be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so you don’t miss the next one. While the information presented is intended to provide you with general information to navigate divorce without destruction, this podcast is not legal advice. This information is specific to the law in North Carolina. If you have any questions before taking action, consult an attorney who is licensed in your state. If you are in need of assistance in North Carolina, you can contact us at Gailor Hunt by visiting divorceistough.com. I’m Jaime Davis, and I’ll talk with you next time on A Year and a Day.